Monday, August 22, 2016

For those of you who knew my dad, Jerry Harper

No comments:
Many of you knew my dad, Jerry Harper. He passed away at 3:05 am on Saturday, August 20 at the age of 88 years old.

He attended with me every Sunday in Boise as long as his health allowed (not the Stanton sect's Boise location, but a mainline Boise congregation). During my dad's last years on earth, he always loved to come to church, even when he really wasn't strong enough to do so.

His memorial service will be on Thursday, August 25, at 1:00 pm at Zeyer Funeral Chapel in Nampa (83 N Midland Blvd, Nampa, ID 83651).

Here is a map:

There will be a graveside military service (he was in the Navy) at 3:00 pm at Idaho State Veterans' Cemetery, at 10100 N Horseshoe Bend Rd, Boise, ID 83714.


Thank you so much for your love, prayers, and words of encouragement. Praise God, he's in a better place!

Tuesday, March 29, 2016

Threats of a lawsuit? Really?

Yesterday, someone posting as "Gary" commented threatening a lawsuit against me. Wow. If true, that is sure to backfire. Click here and search the page for Gary to find the comment on March 28, 2016 at 2:49 PM.

Here is my response to this ridiculousness.

1. I'm not even convinced this comment is from Gary in the first place, but I will offer the benefit of the doubt for now. The phrase "church leadership" doesn't sound like Gary, IMO, and I find it unlikely that he would ask his followers to suddenly read through thousands of comment that he says are false or libelous. But that's just me. Nevertheless, in the spirit of love and good faith, the offer has always stood here to correct the record--either privately or in an open dialogue. There are a number of ways to facilitate that. Call or email me, brother.

2. If true, you realize that, although articles are my own, and are fact-based and as well-reasoned as I can make them--comments here are unmoderated. In good faith, I do make attempts to police name-calling from time to time, and other unloving attacks on individuals, but I do not have the time to read every comment. It is not my legal obligation to do so, but if you point out any factual error or libelous post, I will still do my best to correct the record, because that's what brothers do. I have no desire to defame you or any other leader of the church. I have always and only wanted to deal in facts and scriptural reasoning. Anyone who has read my articles knows this. It doesn't take much reading to see that I have never attempted to get into personal attacks, and have done my best to weed comments out by individuals who engage in them.

3. I've had an open invitation for you or any other leader in the church to correct facts and discuss differences of opinion on scripture. My email address is plainly listed on this site. Not one person in the church, except for my mom, has corrected anything, and the fact that she corrected was how old I was when my dad was withdrawn from. I thought I was 10 or 11, my mom says I was 6 1/2. I corrected it immediately. Neither you nor any of the church leadership have reached out to correct anything--in fact, teachers in the church have highly discouraged people from visiting this blog. So how do you know what's here if you haven't read it yourself and discouraged others from doing so?

4. I've tried to make contact with you for years, Gary, merely to discuss scriptural questions about Stanton, long before I ever got the idea of creating a blog to record the factual history of this sect. I found your email address from a forum you had posted in of Church of Christ preachers many years ago, and tried contacting you (two different emails, actually, both starting with "b4man"). I received no response. Not that you owe me one--but you have had plenty of opportunity to engage in a real conversation. I have even offered on these pages to have a private conversation over coffee sometimes, but have never been taken up on that.

5. Last I checked, brothers are not to take brothers to court. As noted above, I am perfectly open to removing factually incorrect information, and that has been the case since day one of this blog. As always, just send me a list of the exact comments and URLs by email privately so I can search and find them on the Blogger back end.

6. Not having read all the comments, let me just state generally that I do not give my approval to comments, but I would never seek to harm someone's reputation with false information. Ever.

7. If your post is real, Gary, and you do create a lawsuit, understand that you'll lose, and by losing, you'll most likely have to pay my attorney's fees. It's called an "equitable remedy," particularly in a frivolous lawsuit, which this would be. And let me just be clear that if I had wanted to organize legal opposition to the church, I have had plenty of people cheering me on. I avoided that, because this site has never been about attacking personalities, but about trying to lead people who have been oppressed by Stanton's teachings out of the wilderness and into a loving relationship with their Creator. In addition, if I wanted to put out a call for people who have been wronged by the church as a result of following teacher's counsel, I have no doubt I could assemble a list within a few days. That's not who I am--and I certainly hope that's not who you are.

God bless,


Monday, October 12, 2015

The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." ~Mark Twain
I have to apologize to readers (again) for being absent from responding and moderating the blog for so long. I know there are some things I need to clean up, and inappropriate comments to delete. I intended to do that this past weekend, but here it is my lunch hour on Monday and it's still not done.

I started a new job last Spring and had a daughter get married over the summer, so family time has become a lot more scarce, and therefore a bit more precious.  I have some reading to do to catch up, but I'm looking forward to reengaging with the conversation.

P.s. - Just as a reminder to newbies, the articles on this blog are the ONLY things that can be attributed to me personally. The articles express my own opinions in as accurate and kind a way as I know how, but I don't have control over the commenting, nor the time to moderate inappropriate material in real-time.

To those who have helped with this by emailing me specific items that need to be deleted, thank you!


1. Deleted some profanity, please send me links to specifics and I'll delete others.

2. Reminder: Keep it classy and conversational, people, or I'll have to shut comments down. I want to provide a forum for intelligent conversation, not a gutter to throw mud around.

3. Ronnie: Asking "If Stanton isn't the right church, which one is?" is the wrong question and you'll get the wrong answer every time, because there is no perfect, infallible church. Not Stanton, not the Christian Churches, not any of them. That is the point.

A scriptural local church is a body of believers, not a specific denomination or sect meeting in a specific address. See my article This one little problem with the One True Church claimEven the churches in Revelation within the lifespan of the apostles had strayed. If Stanton truly had been on the right track by dividing from mainline CoCs (which they weren't, but go with me here), they would be beset by the same problems as the churches described in Revelation: human error.

A better question is "Where can I worship and grow in knowledge and grace and love and generosity and all the other fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5?"

Saturday, July 18, 2015


In the interest of generating more Biblically-based dialogue here, I thought it would be useful to post a Q&A blog where readers can leave questions in the comment section and I'll provide my take on it from a Biblical standpoint. I'm really not interested in who said what to whom, which is easy to fall into when you're having a historical discussion. Nevertheless, that's just not why I started this blog. Instead, I'm interested in having Biblically grounded, spiritually mature conversations about the church and the Bible with those who are sincere in trying to sort through the many issues raised by the SCOC sect. I'll provide my point of view and you can provide yours.

Rules of the road for this exercise:

  1. Questions must be sincere.
  2. Questions must be able to be answered from the Bible.
  3. I'm not afraid of hard questions.
  4. I'm not an authority. I will simply give my honest opinion based on my understanding of scripture.
  5. Don't expect 24/7 responses. It might take me awhile to respond to more detailed questions. I work full time and have a big family I kind of like to spend time with. ;-)
I haven't decided how to format this yet, so I'll play it by ear. I may answer in the comment section as part of a conversation, or if it needs more space, I may answer in its own post.

Ready? Go!

Friday, June 5, 2015

My Story, by Debby Stevens


I'm really glad that Debby Stevens found the blog recently. There are a lot of good people who love God who have left Stanton's ranks, and I'm thrilled that some of them have found this blog to share their story. My prayer is that by uncovering more voices from Stanton's past, we can show current members that (a) they're not alone in their secret doubts about Stanton's presumptuous "authority;" and (b) there is such a thing as a relationship with God outside of Stanton's walls.

Debby, thanks adding your voice to the discussion here.

My Story by Debby Stevens

I first started with the Stanton group in Portland, OR in 1985 when I was baptized. In 1989 I was asked to move to Lakeland, FL to help start a congregation there. I moved in August 1989, and the preacher that came left the group that November.

A couple with 8 children were sent to Lakeland then, to preach and teach. From the start I and another Christian were constantly rebuked for all kinds of things, and the fact that the congregation wasn’t growing was blamed on us!

This couple ended up moving to Iowa and were eventually withdrawn from by the Lakeland, FL congregation. (That’s another long and shocking story, of which Donna probably remembers!). I was then the “teacher” for Lakeland, FL, but that didn’t last long. I just wasn’t able to teach the things I was told to, nor to rebuke ones as I was told to. Another couple was then sent from Memphis, TN to set the congregation straight.

Lakeland still didn’t grow. I was beginning to really notice the difference between the scriptures I was studying and what was actually being taught and practiced. The “May Meetings” went from being what congregations studied out to teachers telling us what we were going to believe now. Doctrine changed, what had been doctrine before was now something else! May meeting issues were now on subjects of “important things” such as should women wear nylons at classes and worship? Can the bread be broken more than once for the Lord’s Supper?

I also noticed that my teachers taught the same things over and over again. And I also could not agree with their “counsels” on things. For example, my husband’s father was in the hospital dying. At night I would relieve his wife, so she could go home and get some sleep. I would stay the night at the hospital with my Father-in-law, for which he was grateful. Although I missed no personal work, class, or worship, I was rebuked for this! They never said why it was wrong, just that I shouldn’t be doing this. (I still continued doing it until he died.)

The final straw came when the teachers threatened me with withdrawal. The congregation was forced to move to Tampa, even though we never understood why. It was not a decision made by us, it was made higher up. We all had to move at our own expense, too. The problem was that it was very expensive to move to Tampa-for example, the same auto insurance policy was $100 more a month!

Rent was even more expensive! My husband and I looked at the surrounding towns, and found one that was about 12 miles from Tampa and was affordable. However, my husband still sought the “counsel” of the teacher. What he was told was that not only was it ok to move there, the teacher was thinking of moving there himself! We still kept looking, but a month later decided to go ahead and move to this small town.

A month later this teacher helped us to move. That Sunday, we were both soundly rebuked for moving to this town that was outside of Tampa! That because of the move we were causing brethren to be scattered!

Confused, I went privately to that teacher and asked him if my husband had misunderstood his counsel. He said no, that he had said it was ok and that he was thinking of moving there too, but it was to save money. This confused me even more, and I asked him why he had then rebuked us for what he had said was ok to do?!

He refused to answer and ended the conversation. At the next class, I was soundly rebuked for “bringing trivial things to the teacher” and I was threatened with withdrawal. I couldn’t believe it! But what it did was to cause me to go home and to think. I took a hard look at things I had avoided thinking about for years. I’d had doubts about this group and its teachings, and I realized I’d done things I wasn’t proud of.

Gone ahead and taught things I didn’t believe, just because I was afraid of what ones in the group would say and do.

I also realized that my studies had brought me to the point that I disagreed with most of what the group was teaching, and that I couldn’t sit still and be quiet. I had already been rebuked numerous times for teaching differently than the group believed, and I knew it would only get worse. And I was being a hypocrite; I was using other versions of the bible and reading other things written by those outside of the group.

I also realized that I no longer trusted the two “evangelists” of the group. To this day I firmly believe that they know exactly what they are doing, and it’s not for God.

And so I left. I let my husband know my decision and told him that in no way would I stand in his way to continue attending there. I told him nothing of why I was leaving, I didn’t want him to have those same doubts in his mind as I had, or to be in trouble for “murmuring”. Up until this point, we had never discussed these things, as it would have been “murmuring” and therefore we would have been withdrawn from.

The funny thing is, my husband went a couple of more times and then left the group too! When we were finally able to talk, we found out we both had been seeing the same problems all along. Had a lot of the same questions and doubts!

I am glad it happened the way it did, and my only regret is that I didn’t leave sooner. But you see, I was afraid to! It’s been 9 years since we left, and we are still fighting some of that indoctrination that was instilled in us! At that time, I was afraid that God would strike me dead. I didn’t know what to do with myself now that I had TIME on my hands. It’s been a long and difficult journey, but I’m glad for it.

I believe there are brethren in the group who have their doubts, but are afraid to leave. They doubt, but don’t understand them, and may not know what to do about them. I believe there are members who have no peace, and fear gnaws at them every day. They have no one they can trust to talk to, as ones will “run go tell” the teachers.

So Kevin, I believe your blog is important. It’s a safe place they can go to, and ask questions. I wish there had been such a place for me when I left!

Oh! BTW, the Lakeland/Tampa congregation was shut down. It was about a year or two after we left, and my first thought was-at least they can’t blame it on me anymore! See, I was blamed for the congregation not growing. But when we left, there was only one more baptism and then the congregation was shut down.

In truth, it was a congregation that should never have been started, or at least not started in the way that it was! But that’s another story for another day!

Monday, March 30, 2015

My Story, by Matthew Ezell

Matthew submitted his story back in 2013 in a series of six comments. In an effort to reorganize stories like his into a more useful and findable format, I have compiled his story into a single post.

Full disclosure: Matthew is my brother-in-law, and currently "withdrawn from" by the Anchorage, Alaska congregation. Jill is my sister, whom I love very much in spite of our disagreement over the church. They have an awesome family, and I've respected that they've been able to maintain a loving relationship.

August 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM

The option of "Anonymous" allows us to speak without anyone having any preconceived ideas about us and shields us from anyone bringing up our past. We all have one, don't we. I choose not to be "Anonymous" My past has the good, bad and ugly. I pray that you can learn something from it.

I am a past member, teacher, evangelist of this sect, who is currently withdrawn from. For me it all started when my high school friend took me to a Der Wienerschnitzel, where he introduced me to my wife to be. She invited me to a class and I never stopped going. She is still an active member "teacher" of this sect and she is still the love of my life for the last 34 years.

It is so easy for us to point fingers at each other. Because we are all human, faults are easy to see. When I look back at my participation with this sect I have a lot of memories, things I am thankful for and a lot of things I am ashamed of. I needed to learn to move on and remember that I am accountable for my actions. No matter how many faults another might have it will never make me look, or be, any better of a person. I need to improve my own life and live responsibly before my God. I now worship at the Rose street church of Christ in Anchorage and have for several years.

When I tried to make changes I ended up getting withdrawn from. I spoke out against "May Week" and said it was unscriptural. (This was the straw that broke the camel's back). To have select members of each congregation meet to discuss what the brotherhood was going to teach for the next year is not biblical. It would be impossible for me to count how many times I was publicly rebuked from the pulpit and in a Bible class. My favorite scripture during these times was Job 21:3 "Suffer me that I may speak; and after I have spoken, mock on."

August 30, 2013 at 2:33 PM

2nd Post

I am thankful for this page and the FB page that allows different ones to "get things off their chest" and lets us communicate together. This is way overdue. However... all of the anger, hatred, foul language and bitterness, I will not agree with. But I pray that in time we can all work through it. I know it has taken me a long time to get to where I am today and my journey is not done. God deserves a lot of praise for is long suffering with us.

There will be times in our lives, which certain events will happen, that we will never forget. We will remember exactly what we were doing and where we were when it all happened. Like... 9/11, the day the shuttle blew up. All because of the significant impact of the events.

Back in 1977 a few weeks after I became a member of the Stanton congregation, I remember vividly being questioned by two ladies in the congregation (who are still in this sect). They asked me if I masturbated. When I told them no, they said if I did I would be withdrawn from. Later I also learned that they believed masturbation could be a cause for Alzheimers.

Around 1979 was when I found out that some used to tie their children's hands at night, to keep them from "touching themselves". They abused their children in this way because they didn't want their children to grow up to be masturbators. This practice was stopping around the time I learned about it.

I remember (like it was yesterday) while we were in San Antonio, (this would have been around 1984) I received a call from a brother in Odessa asking me what sexual positions I practiced with my wife. I told him, that was not a conversation we were going to have and I never answered his questions. I felt it was none of his business. I then called and asked, someone else (a brother in San Diego) what was going on.

They would also question members to see if they had a "corrupt mind". If they determined they did have one, then they were withdrawn from.

They have withdrawn from hundreds of members for these three "sins". Masturbation, defiled marriage bed and the corrupt mind. They also believe now that those withdrawals were unscriptural. It would be safe to say that they have had far more unscriptural withdrawals than scriptural. They believed that those that fell away, after being withdrawn from scripturally, would have never continued anyway.

There past is so very ugly and they try to hide it. They destroyed the tapes of any recordings with these things being taught. They don't want any of their new converts hearing these things.

I'm sorry for not having a more respectful way of putting this... But was it their Holy Spirit that led them in and out of the "truths" of child restraint, masturbation, the defiled marriage bed and questioning individuals if they had a corrupt mind? Was it their Holy Spirit that kept them united through all of that?

August 30, 2013 at 2:37 PM

3rd Post because it was too long to all be in my 2nd post.

Here is something to take note of... They believe that one of the "ear-marks" of them being the only true church is their belief that are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth and he keeps them united.

It is also important to note that they believe and are convinced that everyone else is lost. All other churches of Christ are referred to as the "off Churches" "Congregations that have had their candlestick removed" (Rev 2:5) therefor they believe God no longer recognized them as being the church.

Here is something VERY important to understand about them... With their strong belief that everyone else is wrong, this leaves them with nowhere else to go. So, no matter what they have done wrong and willingly admit to, it will always be better to stay where they are at, than to go anywhere else.

I will leave you with this scripture...

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9

This is how God feels towards them too. I believe prayer is in order for those we love, that are still a part of this sect.

September 1, 2013 at 6:01 PM

4th Post

I will start this post by saying that in my beginning; every new convert was questioned on masturbation and taught it was wrong. I might add that I still believe that we need to refrain from such behavior.

Now, another day, I will never forget. March 11th 1998. This is the day my Dad passed away suddenly with a heart attack. On this day I was at Sam's Club shopping when my phone rang with my Mom on the other end of the phone. In her emotional pain she told me what had happened. Two months prior she lost her Mom and now her husband, my Dad was dead. All I could do was sit down on a pallet and cry.

I flew to the Stanton area to be with my Mom and family. As we were arranging my Dad's burial, I was told that I needed to go back to Anchorage and worship with them. I was being told I needed to worship with my home congregation even though the Stanton congregation was right there. This was going to require me to miss my father's burial. My family was willing to postpone his funeral so I flew back to Anchorage; worship with my home congregation, then flew back for his funeral. I will always remember, when I first told my Mom, I could not stay. She asked me why I could not stay and worship with the Stanton congregation. That's when I told her, as I had been taught, it is written, "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." -Matthew 8:22. I will never forget her cry and tears.

September 2, 2013 at 8:41 PM

5th Post

Sweetheart (Erin) you are right about Matthew 8. That's just what I was taught and the way they applied it to me was cruel and wrong. I believe they have changed that teaching and application to Matthew 8 also.

Another event I will never forget...

My withdrawal. It was on a Thursday night after our non-member class. My wife and I walked in with some non-members, right about the time the class was supposed to start. Immediately the preacher and a lady took me into a back room to talk with me. They told me that after the non-member class the congregation was going to have a meeting to bring up withdrawing from me for what I said, the last weekend, at a Sunday night fellowship. I asked them a question (I don't remember my specific question) and they said, "We don't have time to talk right now, we need to start class".

This is what I taught at the fellowship "May week was unscriptural and it was like the Baptist convention." Furthermore I said "We can't read in the Bible where the older ones from each congregation are to meet to discuss the teaching and practices of the brotherhood for the purpose of keeping us united."

Now back to Thursday night. When the meeting started, the preacher said he wanted to first paint a picture of me because he didn't believe the congregation knew me like he did. So, before going into what I said that previous Sunday evening, he spoke for about 15 minutes accusing me of things he believed I had done. He then spoke about what I said at the fellowship and then asked if there were any questions. At that point I wanted to address everything he had falsely accused me of, so I raised my hand. He called on me and I began to answer for myself on the first accusation he made about me. I said, "The first thing you just accused me of is believing that the older ones in our congregation are holding a specific brother back from teaching the older kids class" (I might add here that neither he or anyone else had ever talked with me about this).

I told him "I didn't believe that and I had never thought it." At that point another sister interrupted and said, "This has nothing to do with Matthews withdrawal and we didn't need to talk about it" so I was stopped. I raised my hand again and when he called on me I began to talk about his second accusation against me and I was immediately cut off by another sister who said the same thing, "this has nothing to do with Matthew's withdrawal and we didn't need to talk about it." So I was stopped a second time, for trying to answering for myself, the accusations laid against me. I raised my hand again and he called on me one last time. I asked "can I answer for myself for the things I said at the fellowship for the reason you are withdrawing from me?" He said "no" and I was then withdrawn from.

There never was any scripture given to try to show the "May Week" to be scriptural. Not at that meeting or any time thereafter. I continued to attend for around 1 ½ years before I left for good.

I consider this day to be one of the greatest days of my life. I continue to thank God for setting me free. I believe that my life is proof that anyone can make it out of there.

He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the Lord is gracious and full of compassion. Psalms 111:4

September 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

6th Post

There were two other days I will never forget. These two days happened several years after my withdrawal. Two of my boys, on different days, a few years apart from each other, were baptized into the congregation in Anchorage. They both, at their different times, meet up with me to tell me that they were going to get baptized. This might sound odd, but with both of my sons, we just cried and hugged each other. Neither one of them wanted to let me go. Those were the longest hugs ever. This was because we both knew that they would never hold any more conversations with me. No more camping or playing basketball or anything with Papa any more. As I said before, I am literally reminded every day of the bondage that is a part of those congregations. I believe I still have to reap what I sowed and I believe God can work a miracle in their lives also. I told my first boy that God was merciful with me because he led my out of those congregations. I said, "You are so much like me and I believe God will help lead you out of there too."

Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. -Psalms 51:8-13

I do not want anyone to feel sorry for me, because God has been very good to me. I have so much to be thankful for and I know that my journey is not over. This is just what is happening in these congregations today.

I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being. My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD. -Psalms 104:33-3
Here is a link to my own study on Stanton's mistaken understanding of withdrawal. It does not necessarily represent Matthew's opinions.

Wednesday, March 25, 2015

My Story, by Jeff Hernandez

Thank you, Jeff, for your letter detailing your story. I'm sorry for your experiences. If believers are to show Christ to one another as well as to a lost world, this certainly doesn't seem like the way to do it. Thank you for being discreet (proper usage of the word) about names so this doesn't become about personalities, but about the church's culture.

I want to encourage you to find a church family who will take the time to get to know you, and with whom you can share your struggles freely without fear of retribution.
My name is Jeff Hernandez and Lynn is my middle name. My wife and I are still married. She left the church because it was too hard for her to take the kids and listen to the sermons and classes when they were little she spent a lot of time in the cry room, and nobody would help her. When she did start coming back she wasn't whole hearted into it because almost every time she came the topic was about me.

I was first baptized in 1983 when I was 17 years old. Mentally I was still a child. Yes, I made a lot of mistakes, but instead of helping me I got a lot of rebukes and was withdrawn from for basically talking too much. A talebearer. It was easier to shut you up with withdrawal than to work with you. Eventually, almost every teacher was either withdrawn from for false teaching and/or fell away. Because of the way people were treating each other, I left after about 3 years of it. I came back in around 1998/9.

I came back strong. I learned a lot and studied a lot. I caught up a lot by listening to tapes of talks and May weeks. I started seeing a lot of what this congregations biggest problem was. Their lack of love for each other. Yes, they were great in greeting people when they got together, but not where it counted when people were in need. There was a great absence in moral support and members would pick and choose who they would give physical support to.

(I am trying to do this without cluttering this up with specific details.)

I was told that a preacher from Portland was sent to us to help with the lack of love situation, but that didn't work. Him and his wife eventually fell away. A preacher from down south was sent to replace him, but they made the situation worse. He stood by a motto of "don't ask the church could do for you, but what you could do for the church" whenever I would ask for help because of my infirmity. I saw no love in his wife at all. Even when this preacher's own son was preaching he mentioned in a sermon that when his wife was out for a due to her pregnancy that nobody even called her.

In this congregation it was taught that those who have the infirmities and miss classes or worship are supposed be the ones to reach out and not to expect the congregation to help, unless I ask for it. Are we not told to support the weak and bear one another's burdens?

Not too long after I came my spine started deteriorating badly. I had to bring a different chair a the problem was from my tailbone up. I eventually started missing classes and personal work. Then started the constant teaching to push the flesh. I heard that so much that I at times would avoid people to keep from hearing it. When I would call to let somebody know I wasn't going to able to make it, most of the time it would be met with pushing the flesh to go.

In the late 90' in order for me to go to work I had to take 2 800 mg of Ibuprofen and a Vicodin. I was seeing so many doctors and would up in the emergency room at least four times. I am now on disability and have a very hard time doing anything.

When the congregation saw that I was making it sporadically then the teachings and classes and sermons start being focused on me. I would be compared to other members in how if they could do it then so could I. I was compared to an elderly woman in another congregation who comes with her oxygen tank. I was compared to another sister who had one compressed disc who came and laid down in the cry room and got the disc decompressed. I have 3 compressed discs, 7 discs that are damaged, sciatica, stenosis, degenerative disc disease, degenerative arthritis, and scoliosis.

I was constantly treated like I didn't have these problems. I never asked for special treatment nor did I expect it. All I asked for was that my own brethren would show some empathy, keep in contact with me, and share with me what I missed in classes. It turned out pretty bad. It was taught, preached, and even brought out in talks to other congregations that I was self centered, selfish, and stand offish.

There is a lot that happen in the years, but for time and space sake I will keep this from getting long. You can from my other letters things that happen.

In all of this I couldn't fathom why people would choose to stand at a distance and continually tell you to push yourselves and not lift a hand to be there for a brother/sister. I was not the only one this was done to. An elderly sister we had eventually quit coming because of the constant badgering to push the flesh.

I was threatened with withdrawal if I didn't quit bring up that the brethren need to do more for each other in situations like this. That preacher now denies even saying it.

It got to the point that I started ignoring the brethren that were always trying to drive it into me that my pushing and going is more important than what I was going through. It got to the point that it was being said that I think I control the corner on pain and that I am only thinking of myself. All I ever wanted is support from my brethren in what I was going through. The two biggest things I ever asked for was that people would call me every once in a while and to share with me what I missed in classes. What I got was people showing up just to tell me repeatedly to push the flesh. I got so tired of it that I was ignoring my phone when certain people called. That was brought out too. I asked if people could just show up and share the scriptures with me and was told that they can't do that. My wife even heard that one.

The rest of the congregation started following suit in believing that I wasn't accepting teaching and eventually it was like I was on withdrawal as most people wouldn't talk to me and my family. At two fellowships my children were on the children's blanket that they get fed on and all the other children were fed, except my two. I had to get up and make their food. This was even done in front of one of the evangelists.

I couldn't take this anymore and started reaching outside this congregation. I knew one of the preachers from a CA congregation and told him everything. When he inquired about it our preacher from the south told him that nothing is going on. The preacher from the south's wife told me that and that the preacher from CA will believe them over me because they have more status than me.

I didn't stop there. I reached out to the evangelist in CA. He ignored my letter. I emailed a couple more times only to be ignored. Eventually I sent him one stating that this email must not be the right one only to be replied by him that he spoke to a certain preacher here about it and was just going to let them handle it. So, I told him that I would contact the other evangelist and he said go a head. That evangelist was coming to see us anyway and made it a point to talk to us about this. What a mistake that was.

That evangelist held a meeting with the older members and myself. I brought out how I was rebuked basically for following that evangelist's wife's counseling, which should be murmuring, and nothing was done to that preacher. The evangelist told me that after reading my letter that it seemed that it was all just about me like it was self centered. I brought out how that because of my spine I had asked if people wouldn't shake my hand so hard and was said that I was rude about it and this evangelist said that I probably was. After this meeting he took me aside and practically told me too get a job and that I had too much time on my hands like I was a busy body. I'm disabled. That Sunday sermon this evangelist nailed me to the floor comparing me to [Snip]. I even told him that one of the preachers threatened me over a matter, but that got nowhere.

These brethren think they can just show up at people's homes whenever they feel like it. I had asked that before anybody comes over if they could call first as I was on some heavy medication that made me drowsy and a lot of times I was in such pain that I didn't want to see anybody. Also, my wife was fallen away and she didn't like them. It made for an uncomfortable situation. At times we would go out to McDonald's or somewhere to meet, but couldn't all the time because in too much pain. Well, they couldn't accept that. They believed that if they felt like stopping by anytime they want, that you should accept them. A preacher even brought out in a sermon he did on "A Man of God" stating that he that doesn't follow the teachings is not a man of God. He even included that if I don't allow people to show up when they feel like it I am not a man of God. I told this to the evangelist and that to make such a remark you are making that a law, but that was ignored.

Kevin, this only scratches the surface of the years of this treatment. I would have to write a book in order to get everything down.

Because of what I was going through I have set into motion a sequence of events that will move us from this state to another.

I have stopped going since because I practiced this:

Matthew 18:16-18 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I took it to the preacher and was almost withdrawn from at one time. I have talked with many of the preachers and teachers only to be told I am in the wrong for not pushing the flesh and being selfish for looking for support from my brethren. I took it to the outside preacher and two evangelists only to be ignored and have it backfire on me to where now most of the congregation treats me like I am withdrawn from.

I have wrestled with it for quite some time, so that I can't be happy here. I love the Bible and talking scriptures. I am reminded almost every time we go about what I need to be doing. My wife and kids saw this. Even the children of other Christians saw this and disagreed with how they were treating me and don't want to join.

I keep asking them what sin did I commit in looking to my brethren in my times of need.

Tuesday, March 3, 2015

My Story, by "K.F."

A reader emailed me this letter and asked me if I would post it. I've been a little reluctant because of the underlying bitterness that is still there, but we agreed that I could make a few introductory comments about that. While I don't at all endorse the bitterness, I do understand where it's coming from. My hope and prayer is that KF can defeat this bitterness, and I believe that can only happen by experiencing God's love and forgiveness in a way that he's never seen in the Stanton churches.

EDIT #1 - In the spirit of clearing up confusion about the purpose of posting this letter, I think it should be clear by my history on this blog that it was not to defame anyone or slander K.F.'s ex-wife. K.F., I am going to redact a few lines that appear to be attacks on your ex-wife. They may or may not be true, but I don't want the purpose of this blog to be questioned in any manner. The purpose is to expose Stanton's history, give voice to people who have been hurt, and to show a way out of that hurt in a Christlike manner. To those who think I exercised bad judgment by posting the letter in its previous form, I apologize. It was a tough judgment call, and I'm doing my best to seek a wise course on things like this.

They Took My Wife and Ruined My Life, by "K.F."

Hello Kevin, I'm not a member, however many of the members of the Spring Valley cult know me personally through the membership of my ex-wife CF.

I thank you giving all these people a forum to express their experiences with the doctrines put out by the teachers of this cult that have damaged their lives.

In my 30 year career as an air traffic controller, we referred to others by their operating initials, hence KF.

The damage in my life began about 1990 in Santee where I was living with CF, my wife of 7 years at the time. We had two children, EF my son born 1984, and SF my daughter born 1986.

The stories of how the members and their children were separated from their "worldly" friends and families gave me painful reminders of what I and my children suffered from. So I felt that I should contribute some outside perspective to this small community.

CF and I lived unmarried together for nearly four years before getting married in 1983. Yes we waited to be married before having children, not like some of the family members of SCOC.


The door knocker that got my wife's attention then (1990) was none other than [Snip]. Starting with non-member classes then eventually being baptized not long after. The effect on my family was innocuous at first, but soon there were changes that made an impact. When COC stepped into my marriage bed to tell me how and how often I can have sex with my own wife, that told me we were headed for trouble. [Snip]

Then my children were told to dress different than other "worldly" people.

This term "worldly" has separated so many from the real world. When you look outside of the COC, doesn't the rest of the world count? Does this cult think that only people within their one nation english speaking, sexually judgmental world are the only people on earth that matter? Are all women harlots constantly tempting weak-willed men into sexual pursuits? Why not chastity belts?

[EDITOR'S NOTE: There are many ways to teach kids to save sex for marriage and to dress modestly without resorting to cult-like control of members.]

They destroy families and should be shamed and punished for what they have done in the name of Christ. Throughout my wife's membership in the COC, many times fellowships were held in my homes for her to impress other members. Didn't they realize they were invited into the home of a worldly heathen? I would come home from my work on Sundays and feel quite unwelcom in my own home as 10-20 members and kids occupied my house.

[Snip] and their family even rented a home of ours for a time in Santee. Other members have rented apartments or homes that we owned over the 20+ years that CF has been a member.

My kids were taught to avoid me because "he is not one of us" or "your father has worldly behaviors." [Snip]'s kids rented an apt from us, [Snip] rented a brand new home, [Snip] and their 5 kids [Snip] and another family lived together in our duplex til our divorce in 2010. We lost over $100,000 having to sell that asset.

Speaking of our assets. Since the COC discourages women from working or getting an education, the assets that we acquired during our marriage were attained entirely through my ability to maintain my high income job while also spending many,many of my off hours constructing new homes and remodeling others. CF hasn't worked since 1984, She now lives on over $30,000 a year taken from my federal retirement and also lives in a house mortgage-free that she was given in the settlement. How's that ladies? Wouldn't you all like to have your own house and $30K a year?

Of course everyone in the COC knew we were getting divorced. Not one, Not one of any of the members who knew me personally, lived in my homes, worked with me in my airplane washing business, fellowshipped in my home over and over...not one cared enough about our marriage to speak to us together. [Snip] knew me very well.

This is why I refer to the COC as hypocrites Hypo-Christians. They do not practice what they preach.

My children suffered real identity problems as they were continually segregated from their school friends. Sorry, but many of the children in the COC were not the best friends for my daughter to have. Now that I hear of the yelling that went on it angers me more. My son is not a member Thank Goodness not Godness, my daughter is still struggling with identity but is making good progress now in finding new direction. Actually she has attended and will attend college in spite of her mother's church doctrine. [Snip]

So as you can gather I am very bitter over the teachings of this cult and their hypocritical actions. Who do they help but themselves? Will their doctrine bring peace in the world? NO.

Do they reach out to actually provide food or shelter to anyone? NO.

Do billions of other people in the world count? YES.

So you can all go on praying for better times, but until you are ready to roll-up your sleeves and get into the rest of the world and help, yes we are all doomed to some fate. Not by the hand of some God but by the continuous degrading of our lives by failing societies and ignorance.

I addressed the Spring Valley congregation last year with a written flyer I left on a few windshields that day. It addressed a debt that my ex-wife owes me during our worldly divorce.

It was CF who initiated the divorce as the plaintiff. Wasn't that against COC doctrine?

My flyer was taken as an act of domestic violence by CF and she actually had a restraining order placed on me for three months. Talk about worldly actions.

I do not intend to let this debt go, It involves $19,000. Perhaps with a few more people knowing about it she will confess to this debt and pay me back. She already takes money that I alone earned.

Our divorce took over three years (2007-2010) and cost our children over $200,000 of inheritance that went to attorneys. She took me to court again in 2013, wanting more money. Who's worldly now?

So children of COC and members who read this blog, thank you for expressing your views and helping me to gain insight into what happened in my marriage. I forwarded the list of rules that Christian's live by to my sister who lives in Jordan in the Middle East only about 100 miles from Bethlehem, Israel. She responded by saying "there is another group just like them. They are called the Taliban." She is correct, but COC uses Guilt instead of Guns.

If you stay you will be damaged, if you have left or are thinking to leave, may you have better fortune through your self-determination.

Every man/woman sins. The greater sin is non-acceptance of human beings and trying to persuade others to live in a closed-off world. It's a small world that is dying and not growing.

Praying and imagining are not going to change the world as it is. Dreams can be lived but only through earnest work?

Love "Well that's just some people talking" "Your prison is walking through this world all alone" (Eagles)

I'm sure many who read this will know who I am. I invite you to email me.

FYI, I did make edits for clarity, and later cut out some references that I didn't feel were helpful or necessary. It is painful to click "Publish," but I believe it's necessary to hear KF's perspective and experiences.

K.F., I hope these edits are OK with you, if not let me know and I'll remove the post. I'm praying for you that God will bring people into your life to speak about God using a different language--the language of love and radical forgiveness offered through Jesus Christ.

If we look at how Jesus handled being treated unjustly, we have a pretty clear model for how we should react--with love and grace.
grace - n. - unmerited favor
KF...I'm sorry you went through all this.

Tuesday, February 17, 2015

Loving those still in Stanton

I get a lot of questions from people about how best to have a relationship with those still in the Stanton churches. Many feel castigated and judged after leaving, whether they left for Biblically principled reasons, or because they were running from the mistaken view of God they had been told about by Stanton, and wanted nothing to do with him.

What a shame, either way. The dysfunction that has arisen in so many families as a result of Stanton has been written about extensively in these pages and in readers' comments. It's truly an awful legacy, considering that the family unit was designed by God to be a beautiful thing, something that protects and nurtures children's and spouses' faith in God.

Nevertheless, many find themselves on the outside of Stanton for a multitude of reasons, and wonder if there is any hope to patch up relationships with those who remain on the inside. Is it possible? Is it worth it? I hold the view that all relationships are worth it, but if so, how does one go about it? Many have written me expressing how hopeless it all seems.

Hopeless may seem accurate if the only goal is to get the person who is still in, out. While I make no pretense that that is a worthy goal in most cases (because those "in" will see and relate to God so much better from outside of Stanton's darkened view of God), that is the wrong objective to measure success from a relationship point of view. We can't hold the relationship hostage until they leave.

So the real question is how can we relate to those still inside? How do we deal with strong differences of opinion, especially at family gatherings like meals (particularly when there are withdrawn-from family members present) and weddings (where alcohol might be served).

Is it possible for people who strongly disagree with each other to not just be cordial, but to genuinely love each another as Jesus loved? If Jesus' kind of love is truly a command, not just some sort of warm fuzzy feeling, then yes, we can. If love is a command, it's something we have complete control over. God can't command something that is impossible for us to do.

This means disapproval can coexist in a loving relationship. We know this to be true from life experiences. Can't siblings love each other in spite of their different choices in life? Can't parents and adult children love each other in spite of differences in their opinions and choices with regard to church, faith, or anything else? Can't spouses do the same?

I know some of you will shake your heads in disbelief. "Well, that may be a good theory, but I've never seen it happen in real life--at least not in my family." My point exactly. Maybe the real problem is that you haven't actually seen Jesus' love preached or lived out in real life, but I'm here to tell you, it can be done. Whether you are currently a believer or not, you have the ability to model the way forward for your family. Become a believer, set your life on fire for Jesus Christ, and the task at hand will become much more clear.

The scriptures command this kind of love for those we don't understand, or that we have conflicts with, and we are to follow this command above all else. It is our highest calling, above even going to church. If love demands you help someone stuck on the side of the road next Sunday on your way to church, that's what you should do, even it makes you late. Or, you can be the priest with your nose in the air who walks by on the other side of the road, driving right past a golden opportunity to demonstrate love in action.

The Greatest Commands are to Love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor--and by extension, your father, or daughter, or son, or mother, or husband, or wife--as yourself. That's not a theory, it's a life-altering call to action--an deliberate reinvention of each relationship from the ground up. It is simultaneously the easiest and the hardest thing you will ever do. Love comes easy because we're made in the image of a God whose nature is love. But it's hard because we want to make all kinds of excuses why we can't, or shouldn't, or don't need to really love THIS person THAT much.

I may not like someone's behavior, or opinions, or choices, or church, but I can still love them deeply, and display that love genuinely through my actions, words, and demeanor. It doesn't mean I approve of all of the above. It means I love them in spite of it. Wasn't that what Jesus did while associating with the publicans, sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes--those outside the outer circles of the spiritual in-crowd?

Jesus didn't give his stamp of approval to the "riffraff" of society when he socialized with them. He got to know them as real people, with real hurts, habits, and hangups. He didn't wring his hands in fear that eating and drinking with them would be seen as an endorsement of their messed up lives, although the Pharisees dutifully accused him of exactly that. No, man-fearing was definitely not top-of-mind. Instead, the "riffraff" felt Jesus' love for them, not his judgement. In fact, his most fiery judgment was reserved for the most hypocritical teachers of the law, the upper echelon of the religious hierarchy of his day. Things haven't changed much, have they?

Are there times when we may need to show some righteous indignation, or at least put some firm boundaries down about what will or won't happen in our own family unit? Sure, but remember that Jesus had the confidence of knowing everyone's heart. We don't. We should always assume good motives, and that will tend to soften our words a bit. A little humility goes a long way.

Jesus' kind of love--the kind that forgives old hurts, recognizes failures, and loves anyway--is the kind that fathers and daughters can tap into to rebuild a strained relationship, or mothers and daughters can use to heal old wounds. Sons can tap into this Jesus-kind-of-love, even after years of drifting away from their fathers, whether that was because of the natural forces of their teen quest for independence, matched up against a father's need for authority and respect in his home, or because of hardened, unloving church teaching and discipline. Love conquers all, and yes, it covers--overlooks--a multitude of sins. It is not our role to mete out justice to those who have wronged us. That's above our pay grade.
1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
And everyone has them, don't they? Father, son, mother, daughter, in the church, or out of the church, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

You want to know the secret to reconciling sinful people in messed up families? The humility to recognize that we're all in the same boat. We all stand condemned, and thus are all equally in need of God's grace, from those who get all spiritual to those who rarely set foot in a church building. The minute I start demanding that you be held accountable for all you've done wrong, I have to see clearly before me how I've done wrong and need just as much grace and forgiveness as you do. The humility that washes over us when we realize our own shortcomings is the beginning of rebuilding a relationship on mutual love and understanding.

If you have a relationship with someone in Stanton, take heart and don't throw it away just because they may not agree with your decision not to attend. Even if they don't treat you very lovingly when you express your disagreement, that's OK. Love them anyway. Show them Jesus' love in action. Model the right way to live a life of love for those we disagree with, and show them a better way.

Saturday, January 31, 2015

A "Jesus Take The Wheel" kind of faith

Several people have sent me audio files from various meetings since I started this blog, and I just happened to browse some of them recently. One caught my eye called "Standing in the Gap" from November 2013. It sounded inspiring enough, so I imported it into my iTunes and started listening.

It was rather lengthy, and I recalled having started listening to it before, but never made it to the end. After awhile, I remembered why. It took some time to get up to speed, wandering a bit aimlessly for the first 40 minutes. Eventually, though, there were some valuable points made.

Most it was charming prose, though maybe a bit too self-conscious. From one story to another, the first 40 minutes of the talk were about the speaker's ailments, how rough it is to be a preacher, how important his work is, how much influence he's had on younger preachers, and how difficult it is to give a 4 hour lesson.

Jesus Take The Wheel

What really stuck out to me, though, was when he launched into a piece about his doctor's "Jesus Take The Wheel" kind of faith, and how laughable it was that his doctor admonished him to trust God as a way to deal with his stress before standing up behind the pulpit. I guess we can't have someone who's not a member of "The Church" giving meaningful spiritual advice to a preacher.

You can listen to this 5 minute segment I'll call "The Preacher and the Doctor" that starts at about 29:45 in the full audio version. In it, he mocked the doctor's Biblical advice to trust God (to the chuckles of the audience). A perusal of scripture suggest that we go with the good doctor on this one:
Psalm 37:5 - Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him and he will do this: 
Psalm 55:22 - Cast your cares on the LORD and he will sustain you; he will never let the righteous fall. 
Psalm 56:3-4 - When I am afraid, I will trust in you.  In God, whose word I praise, in God I trust; I will not be afraid. What can mortal man do to me? 
Psalm 94:19 - When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought joy to my soul. 
Proverbs 16:3 - Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed. 
Isaiah 40:31 - But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint. 
John 14:27 - Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. 
Philippians 4:6-7 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
To me, the doctor's advice actually displays a genuine, real-world kind of faith--a faith that is not ivory tower kind of stuff, but practical, where the rubber meets the road of our Christian walk. Let go and let God. Jesus, take the wheel.

I know, this is just bumper sticker theology, you say--a trite saying finessed by Nashville into a recording contract. Perhaps, but there's some powerful, life-changing, Biblical admonition in there. I'd be careful about mocking it just because you first heard it on a country station.

He acknowledges that the doctor has a deep faith (with the obligatory "of sorts" caveat), but it struck me that the doctor's faith was perhaps deeper and more practical than his own. In fact, I'd say the doctor's "Jesus Take The Wheel" kind of faith was the same kind that caused Paul to go into the tent-making business to support his ministry to convert the Roman Empire. Kind of a crazy plan, but he entrusted his plans to the Lord, and guess what? They succeeded, just as the scriptures promise. It's the same kind of faith that prompted Paul to criss-cross the known world without fear, go to Macedonia despite warnings of impending imprisonment, and eventually die in Rome for the cause of Christ. Yet the doctor's Paul-style faith was played up for laughs.

I mean no disrespect by pointing this out. This analysis is not about the preacher. I don't know him at all, but I honestly think I'd like him if I met him. So as far as the person goes, I will chalk this up to an off-day behind the podium.

For that reason, I'd prefer that names be kept out of this, simply because it's not about him, or questioning his motives, which I assume are wonderful, but about underscoring a dangerous theology that seeks to cheapen the value of trust in God in everyday life.

I'm here to say loudly and clearly that our God who made the universe, and who made you and me, can and does help those who trust in Him in everyday life--whether that is preaching an effective sermon, overcoming stress and physical ailments, or guiding the hands of a surgeon. We have an all-powerful God who cares deeply about our everyday lives.

After listening to this talk, I was honestly left a little confused. On one hand, he acknowledged the importance of faith, and that it provides victory over the weakness of the flesh, but on the other, appears to mock this whole idea that we can actually cast our burdens on Him. There is a disconnect here that's hard to put my finger on, but it's as if he's saying the idea of absolutely trusting in God is too good to be true. This is accentuated by the doubts he expresses in the face of his struggles, thinking that maybe God has left him somehow. This reminds me of Peter's lack of faith walking on the sea. It was not that Jesus left Peter to sink, it was that Peter's faith wavered when the going got tough. He didn't fully "let Jesus take the wheel."

This disconnect seems to turn all that Christian talk of the importance of faith into a sort of lip service--something that may sound good in theory, but in real life, when you actually get up to give a sermon--you just can't put your stress about that into God's hands. We, after all, are the tip of the spear, God's partner to get this done.

It also struck me as odd that he is glad to not have to rely on a surgeon who prays for God's guidance for his hands. I, for one, would happily put myself into the care of a surgeon who commits his work to the Lord in prayer, believing in faith that God will help him accomplish his task successfully. Do I want him to have some great surgery experience under his belt, too? Yeah, there is that. :-)

I don't want to be too negative, and I don't want to be flippant about this man's ailments or the contradictions of faith I heard. In fairness, I did find some sound exhortation in the latter half of the talk. There was some good encouragement about avoiding fearfulness, avoiding excessive negativity, and being committed to the cause of Christ to the death. All good stuff, and delivered charmingly.

Overall, there was some worthwhile exhortation. But that "Jesus Take The Wheel" segment...yikes!

Here is the snippet again, and here's the full audio if you'd like to listen to the entire talk.

Note: A part of me is really hesitant to post this, because I don't want anyone to think this blog is about tearing down people. I hope you can see that that's not what this is about. I've been behind the podium before, and I've not always been happy with myself afterward. In fact, sometimes embarrassingly so. The golden rule applies here, and while I wouldn't necessarily like someone dissecting my sermon on a blog, if I was speaking unbiblically, I would honestly want someone to correct me so I could deepen my faith. I hope that my analysis here can be received in that light.